Urdu Indian alphabet order makes best sense

-----
See end - pic is of a proposed Chomsky phonology-derived HIOXian diacritic system.
-----
http://www.ukindia.com/zalph.htm

D: The Hindi alphabet is laid out with a keen sense of articulation.
Letters are grouped by the means by which the sound is made.
Like with like.

http://vishal-blankslate.blogspot.com/2008/01/sequence-of-hindi-alphabet.html

The overall sequence of all alphabet has a specific order. The order of the letters depends on the place (in the mouth) where it is pronounced. The sound of the letters in the alphabet start from the back (deep) of the throat and steadily moves upwards & outwards to the front of the mouth (towards lips).
...
So when one speaks Hindi alphabet, the sound (of the letters) constantly moves outwards starting from the bottom of the mouth and ending towards the front of the mouth. Isn't that fascinating?

And that's not all. Each group of letters above (usually grouped in four), are also arranged in specific sequence. Take first four letters for instance: क ख ग घ.
...
The same sequence (non-voiced/non-aspirated to voiced/aspirated) follows for:
---
http://www.2indya.com/2009/01/22/pronunciation-guide-of-hindi-alphabet/
D: a guide to how to pronounce the
Hindi alphabet.
-------------

HIOXian will have a 'letter order' based on the Hindi system.

D: the other pics are of a proposed HIOXian system. It is based on a hybrid of traditional and Chomsky-esque phonology.
I will likely prioritize both English and Mandarin (and so Decimese) in the core letter, so that the diacritic is strictly optional.
I suspect the core figure, the HIOX (H on I on O on X) will contain adequate information for a particular language.
The diacritic will provide additional information. Sometimes this will be redundant with the core figure.
Sometimes the diacritic will contain additional information on timing.

D: Decimese has the core syllable for most vocabulay of CVn - consonant, vowel, nasal consonant.
Initial, mid and final positions.
More complex would be consonant clusters of C plus semivowel.
Dual vowels indicate a diphthong - a "long vowel".
The most complex single-syllable word would be CcVvn.
A slightly more lengthy word would be CcVvcvn.
The top horizontal bars denote time duration. English technically sounds vowels near a mid-word-placed voiced consonant longer. However this is hard to denote with a standard vowel, so 'tis easier to show above said voiced consonant.
So the longest single syllable Decimese word would be CcVvN, as denoted by
1) C - word initial unvoiced but aspirated consonant (PTKFS SH J)
2) c - semivowel consonant. (LRWY)
3) V - vowel (short) (AEIOU)
4) v - diphthong 2nd part (making 3) and 4) a 'long vowel' aeiou as denoted by that or -w or -y
5) N - nasal consonant (M, N, NG)

-----------------
I may develop 3 systems. Two will be familiar - broad and narrow transcription.
A 'mid-width' version could allow expression of allophones within a language, but without the mind-numbing detail of full-blown IPA.
I may allow 3 vertical levels for the square core figure. High, medium and low.
Our Roman alphabet basically has this.
Mid- aeiou. High - hklb. Low - gjp.
However, HIOXian would not have aeiuo...sr et al.
I.e. all mid-tier squares would share phoneme-class features.
For example, Chomsky doesn't allow discrete vowel OR consonant categories.
Semivowels occupy the middle no-man's-land.
Concise systems of this nature can capture all English sounds in 15 aspects.
The totality of world languages would require 25.
The basic HIOX figure contains 16 segments. The diacritic contains 7, for 23 so far.
A - - underline (or overline) would push the total to 25.
That's a tight fit!
I think I'll use IPA motif for deep transcription. I.e. a large HIOX figure low and left.
With a smaller HIOX figure high and right.
That would give us ... 16x2 or 32 bar segments to express 25 aspects.

Traditional phonology charts are also unforgiving.
The consonants are laid out in a 7x7 chart, the vowels on 5x5.
A HIOX is 3x3 plus there are diagonal segments.
Squeak!

I would *like* to have the option of all core HIOX figures on the same level.
However, I may need to stick to the original scheme with vowels low and consonants high.
The diacritic would be over and under respectively. I may include the - - opposite the diacritic for additional or even redundant information, to make it visually clear.
Chomsky's theme, though, would refute this neat division between consonant and vowel.

Chomsky's English phoneme features include:
1) vocal
2) consonantal
3) continuous
4) nasal
5) abruptness
6) lateral
7) voiced
8) tensed
9) strident
10) coronal
11) anterior
And front-back -high -low.

The proposed diacritic scheme clearly indicates word boundaries for Decimese syllables and words.
Aspirated-semivowel-vocalic consonantal - vowel- 2nd diphthonged vowel - nasal consonant.
Note. The "T" in "tap" is aspirated - think breathy. T-hhh.
But in Ratan, the T is not aspirated, since it is not word initial.
Ergo, the aspiration diacritic mark in Decimese indicates a word-initial voiceless counterpart consonant to a word-mid voiced consonant.
In English, this reflects rules of sounding out allophones.
Tadan. T- aspirated {T h}. D- voiced, but not aspirated. And so on.
The horizontal diacritic bar segments reflect duration of the sound.
For ease of cursive writing, all word-internal characters may well be drawn with one long arcing line.
I suppose a diagonal or squiggle could be used to denote an implied break.

Cheers.

---
Special thanks to Adrian for yesterday's contribution!
Never has such a memorable poem been inked on such memorable parchment! <:

through the looking glass lightly: Jabberwocky

---
JABBERWOCKY.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
----
D: this poem gets more mileage in linguistic textbooks and studies!

This is an example of a nonsense poem.

In Lewis Carroll’s Through the Looking-Glass, the sequel to Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, Alice finds a poem in book and tries to read it, but the poem is written backwards, so she holds it up to a mirror to read it. She still does not understand it, even though she claims it did seem give her ideas.

That poem is now famously known as “Jabberwocky.” It is often hailed the most important nonsense poem in the English language. But if a reader looks closely, there is a method to the speaker’s madness in this poem. As Humpty Dumpty explains the poem to Alice, he demonstrates that the poet actually created an important, intelligent poem that is not entirely nonsense.

---
D: take the first passage.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

D: English has grammatical indicators. They are a closed class of function words. The list hardly ever changes historically. I think the last addition was from old English, "will".
These function words, infixes and word order all effectively create distinct meaning in English.

Infix cues in English include:
1) plural - s
2) possessive - 's
3) 3rd person singular - s
4) past tense - typically -ed
5) present participle -ing
6) past participle - (have plus) -ed typically
7) comparative and superlative -er and -est.

Word order is SVO - subject verb object. Noun verb noun.
With some details, like Subject: Article, adjective, noun...
Subject and object pronouns provide additional detail.
Subject: I. BUT object: me.

And so armed, we can engage in a constituent analysis.

Traditional school grammar works up to a point.
Noun. Right. Verb. Right.
... Adverb? Nope.
It take -ly you say? You drive quickly. BUT. You drive... FAST. Not fastly.
Prepositions, conjunctions and interjections do not have clear morphological indicators.
Hit - is it a noun or verb?
Beautiful - if it is an adjective, why can it not take comparative -er ending?
If poor is an adjective, then how can the poor be at a disadvantage?

So once again, we visit Alice in Wonderland.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

'Twas -, and the -y -s
Did - and - in the -:
All -y were the -s,
And the - -s out-.

D: If we used existing standard vocabulary, the first line could easily be as follows.

'Twas pithy, and the funny puns

But even without these known words, the nonsense verse somehow FEELS sensible as our grammar brain organ parses it according to cues.

D: I recall a few years ago how the SAT test in the USA had an essay. A computer was marking it automatically.
Someone wrote nonsense verse with impeccable grammar.
LOL! The computer gave them high marks.
Completely lacking meaningful content!

Our brains are good at sorting out meaning from very little helpful data:

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteers be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

D: there was no study. But the passage makes its point.

Rhotic rumble: IAL smackdown. Compared to Mandarin.

D: I'm comparing phonological and grammatical features of 4 IALs to Mandarin Chinese.
Lojban, Esp-o, Ceqli and LangX. Only Lojban makes no pretenses about being designed initially as a global IAL.

--
Mandarin:

http://www.zein.se/patrick/chinen8p.html

D: Huh. The Wiki goes into more detail than I need right now on phonology.

Unaspirated Aspirated Nasal Voiceless
fricative Voiced
fricative
Labial b p m f
Alveolar d t n l
Velar g k h
Palatal j q x
Dental sibilant z c s
Retroflex zh ch sh r
In Mandarin Chinese there are 35 final sounds:

6 simple finals: a, e, i, o, u, ü
13 compound finals: ai, ao, ei, ia, iao, ie, iou, ou, ua, uai, üe, uei, uo
16 nasal finals: 8 front nasals: an, en, ian, in, uan, üan, uen, ün
8 back nasals: ang, eng, iang, ing, iong, ong, uang, ueng
Additional syllables in Mandarin Chinese:

7 special cases: er, hm, hng, m, n, ng, ~r

D: but the rules for syllable construction are both restrictive by format, and arbitrary by quirk.

a, ai, an, ang, ao
ba, bai, ban, bang, bao, bei, ben, beng, bi, bian, biao, bie, bin, bing, bo, bu
ca, cai, can, cang, cao, ce, cei, cen, ceng, cha, chai, chan, chang, chao, che, chen, cheng, chi, chong, chou, chu, chua, chuai, chuan, chuang, chui, chun, chuo, ci, cong, cou, cu, cuan, cui, cun, cuo
da, dai, dan, dang, dao, de, dei, den, deng, di, dian, diao, die, ding, diu, dong, dou, du, duan, dui, dun, duo
e, ê, ei, en, er
fa, fan, fang, fei, fen, feng, fo, fou, fu
ga, gai, gan, gang, gao, ge, gei, gen, geng, gong, gou, gu, gua, guai, guan, guang, gui, gun, guo
ha, hai, han, hang, hao, he, hei, hen, heng, hm, hng, hong, hou, hu, hua, huai, huan, huang, hui, hun, huo
ji, jia, jian, jiang, jiao, jie, jin, jing, jiong, jiu, ju, juan, jue, jun
ka, kai, kan, kang, kao, ke, kei, ken, keng, kong, kou, ku, kua, kuai, kuan, kuang, kui, kun, kuo
la, lai, lan, lang, lao, le, lei, leng, li, lia, lian, liang, liao, lie, lin, ling, liu, long, lou, lu, luo, luan, lun, lü, lüe
m, ma, mai, man, mang, mao, mei, men, meng, mi, mian, miao, mie, min, ming, miu, mo, mou, mu
n, na, nai, nan, nang, nao, ne, nei, nen, neng, ng, ni, nian, niang, niao, nie, nin, ning, niu, nong, nou, nu, nuo, nuan, nü, nüe
o, ou
pa, pai, pan, pang, pao, pei, pen, peng, pi, pian, piao, pie, pin, ping, po, pou, pu
qi, qia, qian, qiang, qiao, qie, qin, qing, qiong, qiu, qu, quan, que, qun
ran, rang, rao, re, ren, reng, ri, rong, rou, ru, rua, ruan, rui, run, ruo
sa, sai, san, sang, sao, se, sei, sen, seng, sha, shai, shan, shang, shao, she, shei, shen, sheng, shi, shou, shu, shua, shuai, shuan, shuang, shui, shun, shuo, si, song, sou, su, suan, sui, sun, suo
ta, tai, tan, tang, tao, te, teng, ti, tian, tiao, tie, ting, tong, tou, tu, tuan, tui, tun, tuo
wa, wai, wan, wang, wei, wen, weng, wo, wu
xi, xia, xian, xiang, xiao, xie, xin, xing, xiong, xiu, xu, xuan, xue, xun
ya, yan, yang, yao, ye, yi, yin, ying, yong, you, yu, yuan, yue, yun
za, zai, zan, zang, zao, ze, zei, zen, zeng, zha, zhai, zhan, zhang, zhao, zhe, zhei, zhen, zheng, zhi, zhong, zhou, zhu, zhua, zhuai, zhuan, zhuang, zhui, zhun, zhuo, zi, zong, zou, zu, zuan, zui, zun, zuo

D: don't try posting all monosyllables in English- there a lot more.

OK, so we see what the initial problems with almost every IAL will be be.
1) phonemes - particularly voiced/voiceless consonant pairs
2) syllable format - the initial/end rules are brutal.

Grammar: Subject Verb Object - the same as English.
Heavy use of optional word particles to denote nuance. Infixes are basically absent.

So immediately, any Latinate or European-derived language is in trouble.
Including "Euroclones lite" - tastes great, but still Euro.

----
Espo:
Consonants Vowels & diphthongs
Letter English IPA Letter English IPA
b b [b] a ah [a, ɑ]
c ts [t͡s] e eh [e, ɛ]
ĉ ch [t͡ʃ] i ee [i]
d d [d] o oh [o, ɔ]
f f [f] u oo [u]
g hard g
(as in go) [ɡ]
ĝ j [d͡ʒ] aj bye [ai̯, ɑi̯]
h h [h] aŭ bough [au̯, ɑu̯]
ĥ loch [x] ej bay [ei̯, ɛi̯]
j y [j] eŭ * [eu̯, ɛu̯]
ĵ zh [ʒ] oj boy [oi̯, ɔi̯]
k k [k] uj buoy** [ui̯]
l l [l] (as one syllable)
m m [m] * Something similar to eŭ can be heard in exaggerated mimicry – as
delivered by such American comedians as Carol Burnett – of the
pronunciation in British RP of the word "oh"
** where pronounced roughly as written, and not homophonous with "boy"
Ŭ is a consonant in names and a few interjections, such as ŭa! (waa!)
n n [n]
p p [p]
r r (rolled) [r]
s s [s]
ŝ sh [ʃ]
t t [t]
v v [v]
z z [z]

D: Huh. Mandarin is one of the few groups that won't stumble on the Ts- sound.

But 'tis not the phonemes, but phonotactics that prove problematic.
Mandarin, when it allows a consonant in final position, only regularly allow -N and -NG.

Since Esp-o basically allow mirror image syllable formats, as well as adjacent CVC- syllables, Mandarin speakers are in trouble.
Oddly, all the Esp-o sites that talk about Mandarin speakers claim they take to Esp-o like a duck to water...
Ditto the mono/polysyllable divide.
In RESP training, the word that kicked the Chinese guy's ass was "inevitability". Simple syllable structures, but highly polysyllabic, with a staccato delivery.

Esp-o:

A syllable in Esperanto is generally of the form (s/ŝ)(C)(C)V(C)(C). That is, it may have an onset, of up to three consonants

Any consonant except h may close a syllable, though coda ĝ and ĵ are rare in monomorphemes (they contrast in aĝ’ 'age' vs. aĵ’ 'thing'). Within a morpheme, there may be a maximum of four sequential consonants, as for example in instruas "teaches", dekstren "to the right". Long clusters generally include a sibilant such as s or one of the liquids l or r.
Geminate consonants generally only occur in polymorphemic words, such as mal-longa "short"

'Nuff said. I still cannot say anything in Esp-o derived from science.
------
D: if we are only talking about a childhood language, when the mind is still plastic and flexible, no problem.
For that matter, we could teach Xoo with a staggering number of phonemes and a Cantonese tone system while we're at it.
But if an IAL must be learned by adults, and ones from diverse linguistic backgrounds that are not professional linguists and/or accomplished polygots.... we have a problem.

I'm done now.
---
Lojban:

1. 2. Diphthongs
Lojban has 16 diphthongs (a kind of sound which consists of a vowel plus a glide, always constituting a single syllable). The combinations , , and , for instance, are all realized as the corresponding falling diphthongs. To force these sounds to be pronounced separately as monophthongs, a comma can be put between them. Triphthongs do not exist in Lojban.

D: oddly not a problem for Mandarin, which uses diphthongs heavily.
Having said that, this will just SLAY a whole lotta linguistic backgrounds.

Phoneme Grapheme Sounds like
vowel
open a (ɑ) a like the "a" in father, NOT like in hat.
front mid ɛ (e) e like the "e" in bet, NOT like in beep
front close i i like the "i" in machine, NOT like in igloo
back mid o (ɔ) o like the "o" in open, NOT like opera
back close u u like the "oo" in moon, NOT like in cup
central mid ə y like the "a" in sofa, NOT as in yellow
fricative
voiceless labial f (ɸ) f like the "f" in fat
voiced labial v (β) v like the "v" in vast
voiceless velar x x Like the "ch" in the Scottish loch, or like the German Bach, or like the "j" in Spanish José, or like the "Kh" in Arabic Khaled.
unvoiced glottal / unvoiced dental h (θ) '
sibilant
voiceless alveolar s s
voiced alveolar z z
voiceless coronal ʃ (ʂ) c like the "sh" in shoe
voiced coronal ʒ (ʐ) j like the "s" in vision
stop
voiceless bilabial p p
voiced bilabial b b
voiceless dental / voiceless alveolar t t
voiced dental / voiced alveolar d d
voiceless velar k k
voiced velar ɡ g
glottal ʔ .
approximant
labial glide w u-
palatal glide j i-
voiced lateral l (l)̩ l
nasals
voiced bilabial m (m)̩ m
voiced dental / voiced velar n (n̩, ŋ, ŋ̩) n
tap/flap
rhotic r, ɹ, ɾ, ʀ, r ̩, ɹ̩, ɾ̩, ʀ̩ r

brivla (bridi valsi) "part of speech: content word"

D: briv-la. It seems like a pretty simple word to an English speaker.
Not so for a Mandarin speaker.
BR - consonant cluster. Nope.
BRIV- ending in V. Nope.

So Lojban gets part marks for phonology selection. Then loses some for somewhat difficult syllable rules.

---
LangX.

http://patwa.pbworks.com/
I just picked the first contributor.
Neo-Patwa.

There are five vowels, two semivowels, and 14 consonants.

Vowels

A (father); E (pet); I (sheet); O (coat); U (shoot)

Consonants

P (pen); B (bet); K (kangaroo); G (go); T (ten); D (den); C (cheat, or alternately shell); S (sit); F (find); H (loch, red); M (mine); N (not); L (long)

Semivowels

Y (yard); W (water)

D: Hmm, we immediately get into trouble with the PB distinction. I'm sure it is widely acceptable.
One could argue that aspiration could be used, but this will be opaque to non-Mandarin speakers.

Perhaps we fare better in the syllable rules.

Hello: Canti. (peace)
Good Bye: Canti
Thank you: Asante (thanks)
You're welcome: No yau asante (no need thanks)
I'm sorry: Skusa
Don't worry: Aca / No susi (no worry)
Excuse me: Mafan

D: this fares pretty well but not perfectly. The consonant-Y-vowel format will be tricky (mine is optional).
And S+K is gonna be tricky too.
So not perfect, though fairly good.
Surprisingly poor in light of how few phonemes there are, though.

---
Ceqli:

B as in Boy
C as in CHin
D as in DuD
F as in FluFF
G as in Good
H as in Hat
J as in John, Gem
K as in KinK
P as in PiP
S as in So
T as in ToT
V as in Victory
X as in SHoe
Z as in Zoo


The other 12 are considered vowels in Ceqli

Five Full Vowels:

A as in fAther
E as in bEt*
I as in machIne
O as in bOAt
U as in bOOt

And two semivowels:

W as in We, coW
Y as in You, boY

And five sounds, nasals and liquids, that are usually thought of
as consonants, but are considered vowels in Ceqli:

L as in LuLL
M as in MiM
N as in NooN
Q as in siNG
R as in RoaR (Midwestern American or Mandarin preferred, but any 'r' sound will do.)

W and Y make these diphthongs:

ay - as in frY
aw - as in cow
ey - as in bAthe
oy - as in bOY
ya - as in YArd
ye- as in YEllow
yo - as in YOre
yu - as in YOU
wa - as in WAter
we - as in WEt
wi - as in WE

D: A perfect score!!!
Not surprising, since it is largely based on Mandarin that way.
This is not a criticism. So is Decimese.

Triphthongs are possible though rare:
yay as in YIkes!
waw as in WOW!
wey as in WAY
yey as in YAY
yoy as in YOIks!

OK a coupla of these will be tricky.

dan - in, inside from French "dans"
dom - house from Russian/Latin — also English "domestic"
go - I or me (note that it's a GW, as are the following pronouns)
zi - you from German "Sie"
da - he, she, or it (above I stated that "da" introduces a verb phrase. All pronouns do.) from Logan "da"
gozi - we (inclusive) this is an example of compounded GW's.
goda - we (exclusive)

D: once again, great marks!

Just about perfect.

---
D: so there we have it.
Model T Ford.
60's muscle car.
Modern sedan.
Niice peppy compact!

So what is Decimese?
<: A hybrid. <:

The trick is to use the LangX trick. Just like Esp-o wished to freeze developments, even "improvements" until after accepted as the standard, LangX is waiting for saturation.
LangX begins with a small phoneme selection and simple syllables.
Over generations, it would methodically increase in complexity.
I've noted my muted criticism of their implementation details.
Their linear progression would leave many have-nots behind.
Also, I understand why the initial lang13 offering has no tone.
There is NO reason why later progression would not also include tone.
Every bit as much as it should include more sounds and acceptable syllable forms.
With a different approach, they could evolve their way into SpeedTalk.

Anyway, LangX uses the trick of increasing categories intergenerationally.
My Decimese at the intermediate stage, or for some linguistic backgrounds, can embed word particles into the main word in the form of more complex syllables.
CV CVC .... CCVVC. Or cv CVC... CcVv(nasal).
I already explored using tone to do just this with an English-derived pidgin in VERSE.
I don't suppose there is any reason I could not more ambitiously bootstrap my way from Decimese to "Speedtalk".
But the level of planning required to not paint myself into a corner is staggering.
And LOL after two years I am only now nailing down basic phonotactics and grammar format LOL.
As well as core vocabulary.

I read an article on China today. They warned that free flow of info on the net could "hurt bilateral relations". The world would have found it hard to believe the chutzpah of this just a mere decade ago.
When Esp-o was being written a century ago, China was an ancient empire that had been soundly beaten by firearms.
Of course, Esp-o did not emphasize ease of learning for Mandarin speakers.

Every day, Esp-o will drift farther away from viability as China rises ascendant.
Even widely palatable pidgins will fail to meet the demanding limitations of Mandarin.
Whether China supplants the USA or the entire English-speaking world is not necessary to make my point.
They're playing in the big league with the big boys now. Nobody seriously thinks that will change.
Looking to the future, I see what Ceqli sees. A lowest-common-denominator between English and Mandarin.
I just wish to capture Sapir's "spirit of the age" more explicitly. And provide a novel, robust meta-vocabulary for all common terms to boot. Much like a taxonomic system that way.
It is no coincidence that the last 3 influential books I've read have been:
1) The Blank Slate
2) Honour: a History
3) The God Delusion.
Reason and superstition. I associate every natural language, and pidgin/interlang IALs with the latter.
Not based in math, in science, in reason.
We replaced alchemy with chemistry. Astrology with astronomy. Vitalism with biology.
But one aspect of human existence - a central one -maybe the central one- remains unexamined.
Lojban and a handful of others can lay claim to carrying the flag for Sapir.
A language that has the format of Mandarin in the form of a subset of acceptable English phonotactics, and that possesses both the message of Sapir as well as a format to express it well is fit to inherit the mantle of "world language".
There it is.

"bio-evolution" hypothesis challenges drift theory

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/article.php?id=1805


The study argues that human languages may adapt more like biological organisms than previously thought and that the more common and popular the language, the simpler its construction to facilitate its survival.

Traditional thinking is that languages develop based upon random change and historical drift. For example, English and Turkish are very different languages based upon histories that separate them in space and time. For years, it has been the reigning assumption in the linguistic sciences.

...

The researchers found striking relationships between the demographic properties of a language — such as its population and global spread — and the grammatical complexity of those languages. Languages having the most speakers — and those that have spread around the world — were found to have far simpler grammars, specifically morphology, than languages spoken by few people and in circumscribed regions. For example, languages spoken by more than 100,000 people are almost six times more likely to have simple verb conjugations compared to languages spoken by fewer than 100,000 people.

Larger populations tend to have simpler pronoun and number systems and a smaller number of cases and genders and in general do not employ complex prefixing or suffixing rules in their grammars. A consequence is that languages with long histories of adult learners have become easier to learn over time. Although a number of researchers have predicted such relationships between social and language structure, this is the first large-scale statistical test of this idea.

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D: Makes sense. We each have our own unique take on our native tongue. It even varies between family members.
That's called an "idiolect". ? Idiosyncratic dialect ?

The more numbers and geographical area that need to communicate, the more the mandatory complexities of a grammar would need to be 'dumbed down' to the lowest common denominator.
This does support the idea that any particular national language that gains international status faces such pressures.
In other words, if English were to become the "official world language", this would not be a victory for English as we know it.
It would gradually cease to resemble the cultural English that we know and understand. And sometimes even love.

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http://donh.best.vwh.net/Languages/broadribb.html

http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/1/6/7/3/16737/16737-8.htm

http://www.rickharrison.com/language/bloated.html
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Some nice primers on Dubitanto. Er, Esp-o. <:
We see the historical quandary. Until popular, one must NOT tinker with an aux-lang. We need 1 standard first.
BUT. How to get there.
I have an elegant though useless suggestion for Esp-o. Too little, too late.
Don't release a half-tested language to the public.

In software, we call that 'beta-testing'.

Beta
"Beta" is a nickname for software which has passed the alpha testing stage of development and has been released to users for software testing before its official release. It is the prototype of the software that is released to the public. Beta testing allows the software to undergo usability testing with users who provide feedback, so that any malfunctions these users find in the software can be reported to the developers and fixed. Beta software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss

The users of a beta version are called beta testers. They are usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software. They receive the software for free or for a reduced price, but act as free testers.
---
D: in video game software, the market supports premature release of buggy games.
Then along comes the patch to fix everything. And wham! Your character gets wiped out, along with all the levels and the time and energy you put in to it to get there.

D: aux-langs, however, do not share the insatiable demand of game consumers. The market is opposite.
Imagine, if you will, an public unwilling to purchase one of dozens of games on the shelf.
I'd feel confident to say that game companies would not be willing to give consumer access to a shoddy, undeveloped game.

Well, that's the aux-lang "market" for you.

After the core fan-boy group 'buys' your aux-lang, the more discerning consumers pick and choose. They read the reviews from early adopters. They base their 'purchase' decisions on those reviews.
Most aux-langs hit a ceiling of popularity. Well, all.
This ceiling - and how high it is- is based on how niche the ideological space of the aux-lang is.
In our analogy, is the 'game' (language) a first person shooter or a rarified whodunit?
Beyond that, the quality of the game ultimately dictates the game's popularity.
Many people will play a good game, though not all.
Take "Rock Band", for example. Even I play it - and I don't play games!
What we need in the aux-lang community is such a fresh rethink that non-gamers (linguist geeks) want to play (learn).
After all, Rock Bank is just a clever rethink of Kareoke, which has been around forever.
But it went mainstream - it got HUGE.
I suppose World of Warcraft qualifies too.

A quality product of the right subgenre is part of it. But the Kareoke or MMO aspect (social) is important too.

An aux-lang designer should consider these lessons from the very conception of the language.

I make this solemn promise: I'll never ask anybody to 'beta test' for me, unless my languague is clearly a pre-release test version.
I wouldn't even want many to learn that - it makes unlearning so difficult.

----
Later this week - the old order changes, yielding place to the new.
I'll compare the phonology, phonotactics and grammar of Mandarian to various IAL attempts.
I will focus solely on those designed as IALs.
Since the syllable rules (sans tone) for Mandarin are brutally limited, and the grammar superficially very simple, this is definitely a 'trial by fire' for any IAL. Even pidgin/creole-derived/based ones.
The rise of China is not something considered by any historical IAL attempt.

http://ceqli.pbworks.com/Lesson%201
D: I suspect only Ceqli will fare very well at all.

self-made signing deaf kids show inherent grammar

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060206171833.htm

D: The concept of "subject" spontaneously manifests.

Using their home sign, they explained what they had seen. All three home signers consistently used the grammatical construction of "subject" in the same form it is used throughout languages around the world.
The concept of "subject" is ubiquitous in language, but is complex and difficult to define. Language assigns concepts to symbols, but does so imperfectly--a noun is usually an object, but certainly not always, as the noun "liberty" demonstrates.

Despite having to essentially design their own languages without influence from any other speakers or signers of an established language, the home signers created a complex grammatical component and used it in the same way highly evolved languages do. That the idea of "subject" exists in these individuals and is used in the same manner, strongly suggests that this basic and somewhat arbitrary property of language is an innate tendency in humans as they develop any communication system.

D: the idea of humans as 'blank slates' is just not credible.

D: the implication is that an aux-lang should not be designed too different that natural language default settings.
Particularly pidgins.

D: I'm reading the ABCs of Phonology right now. Crud, the web is NOT like a decent book! All that IPA chart stuff on consonants and phonemes.... and I never once saw Chomsky's generative-theory phonology system.
15 aspects with a +/- setting to define English sounds, 25 for the world.
A 'broad transcription' version of HIOXian has no need to show more elements than are needed to differentiate it for a certain language. Even though the above system has a hierarchal layout, if only one phoneme could be identified and sounded out by a certain language background user, the rest of the information earlier one would remain superfluous.
This is my attempt to start shaping the figure for easy cursive writing.

There is a nice observation - a person whose language already uses an element will be able to apply that element to learn related but new phonemes.
In theory, a fairly limited set of phonemes -IF they are the right ones - could provide the basis to fairly easily learn all others.

LOL. I could not even figure out how to made the KP dual sound after three tries.

If I include all English dialects for diphthongs/ long vowels, I end up with a fairly close match to Mandarin.

I don't wish to make the HIOXian letter abstract. If I did, then mapping Chomsky's phonology onto it would be a simple matter.
The HIOX has 16 segments. The diacritic has 7. That's 23. An 'underline' option of 2 bar segments would make 25.
But that would be abstract. NOT easy.

The ABCs book has a chapter on designed languages. A list of pet peeves included:
1) too hard
2) too limited
3) not based on latest insights into nature of language and our brains.

I'm finding that my English bias means I'm really just mapping my preconceptions onto Decimese.
Wanna have concepts link to various grammatical elements.
In theory, a particular user could add modules (particles) to flesh out minimalist meaning.
Would like overt indicators of # of arguments a verb takes (1,2,3).
Varying preposition position could allow them to serve double duty, much like that and as do in English.
The important thing is that a particle's class of word in a particular position/order is clearly only ONE thing.
These optional particles would amount to optional agreement. Optional...
Optional for detail, and optional for agreement.
Optional.

The taxonomic aspect is in the core workhorse words. The vowels provide a natural 0-4 theme. It works well for prepositions, other grammatical elements derived from them, and space dimensions/ properties.
Or any short list.
The main consonants provide an good spread of 6-7 items.
Diphthongs can be used to cram subsets of ideas into the vowel space without an extra particle or syllable.
The H* syllable is turning out to be central.
What it does depends on whether it is a particle, word-syllable-initial, mid or end.
I do know that mid-noun, it is always gonna be a preposition denoting more nuance than English allows.
Spaceman. Man-for-space. Man-in-space. Man-from-space? Et al. With diphthongs, a whole lotta potential details.
The concept of single, dual and plural is also finding use in multiple grammar classes.
The main HA, HE, HI... concepts of prepositions are shaping up like Somalian. I'll be using overt space/time indicators for those concepts. Diphthongs allow the usual detail we're used to, if need be.
Diphthongs are being used to extend short # spans. I.e. element 1 and 4 not 2 and 3 or any variation. Advanced pronouns like we-not-you, as well as many others. Really, a whole lotta stuff like that. Overlap in verb tenses. Past and present. Past to just before. I even managed to capture "the once and future king"- while not present! Very short, powerful, nuanced.
Actually, I only have a handful of slight variations of core concepts, all endlessly recycled.
Standard vocabulary items can be done by somebody else!!! This will be hard enough...

can we detect Neanderthal influence in Proto-Indo-European?

Hot on the heels of the oldest recording of a human voice, the voice of the long-extinct Neanderthal species may be heard again, after a gap of 30,000 years, courtesy of a computer synthesiser.

Robert McCarthy, an anthropologist at Florida Atlantic University, has produced a simulation of the Neanderthal ‘voice box’ from recent reconstructions of Neanderthal anatomy based on recent fossils finds in France. Neanderthal speech, says McCarthy, lacks the quantal vowels of its modern equivalent.

McCarthy and his team have so far only reconstructed the sound of the Neanderthal “E”, though he hopes to eventually simulate an entire sentence as spoken by a Neanderthal. The Neanderthal vowel is shown to be clearly distinct from a modern human voice, and McCarthy admits that the difference, though subtle, would have limited Neanderthal speech.

McCarthy explained quantal vowels as sounds that are recognizable as "a" or "o," for example, no matter how high- or low-pitched the speaker's voice is.

Neanderthals' inamility to produce these vowels would have severely limited their ability to form and understand a complex language, McCarthy argues, though Erik Trinkaus of Washington University in St. Louis, one of the world's leading experts on Neanderthals, disagrees.


"Ultimately what is important is not the anatomy of the mouth, but the neuronal control of it," Trinkaus tells New Scientist, pointing out that Neanderthal brains were larger than those of modern humans, and that both species shared a gene essential for language.

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D: and what are quantal vowels?

... the three so-called quantal vowels of American English plus the neutral vowel. See Figure 8 for an idea of where the quantal vowels fit in the vowel triangle (which is really a quadrilateral).
/i:/ An high front vowel having a high-frequency concentration of energy above 1800 Hz.
/u/ A high back vowel having almost all its energy in the low frequencies below 1000 Hz.
/A/ A low vowel having a tight concentration of energy in the mid-range of 800 Hz to 1800 Hz.

D: now here is where it gets interesting. AUI forms the backbone of almost all human languages.
I'll check in a minute if that is true of PIE.
Here is my theory - if we see two parallel homonyms in PIE for common terms, and they each have distinctive vowel forms, then we might have circumstantial evidence of a neanderthal language.

I read "Hominids" by Sawyer. He hammed up the differences between man and caveman. I suppose it helped his story. Neanderthals don't have quite the same shoulder actuation to throw stuff like we do. There are some differences.

Everybody is fixated on whether we slept with cavegals. We keep looking for evidence of interaction in the genes.
I say look in the language.

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. By 130,000 years ago, complete Neanderthal characteristics had appeared. These characteristics then disappeared in Asia by 50,000 years ago and in Europe by 30,000 years ago.[5]

D: OK this is a problem. Beyond 5-10,000 years ago, we lose track of language evolution.
Too much static, I guess.
So my theory must wait for more data and/or better data processing techniques.

----

http://www.grsampson.net/Q_PIE.html
Nice primer.

About half of the world’s present population speak some IE (Indo-European) language as their mother tongue. All these languages are held to derive ultimately from a single ancestor language, which we call “Proto-Indo-European”, or PIE for short.

D: I'd expect that neanderthals would rely more heavily on consonant clusters since many vowels are impossible for them.
The use on 'soft' consonants that have vowel-like properties such as liquids, semi-glides and nasals would be predicted by my theory.

D: PIE vowels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language#Vowels

Vowels
Short vowels: *e, *o (and possibly *a).
Long vowels: *ē, *ō (and possibly *ā). Sometimes a colon (:) is employed instead of the macron sign to indicate vowel length (*a:, *e:, *o:).
Diphthongs: *ei, *eu, *ēi, *ēu, *oi, *ou, *ōi, *ōu, (*ai, *au, *āi, *āu). Diphthongs are sometimes understood as combinations of a vowel plus a semivowel, e. g. *ey or *ei̯ instead of *ei.[8]

D: but I expected this. PIE would be for humans and by humans. Home Sapiens - us.
The test remains to check vocabulary for just a few (but statistically significant) anomalous homonyms.

*p@ter- father
*ped- foot
*bhrater- brother
*bher- carry
*gwei- live
*sen- old
*wi-ro- man (derived from *wei@- vital force)
*trei- three
*dekm- ten
*dkm-tom- hundred (derived from *dekm- ten)

D: looks like I'll hafta pore over about a 1000 words from the Watkins book.

See my blog entry on words and cultural dominance.
http://a-new-world-language.blogspot.com/2009/06/cultural-dominance-language-change.html

D: so we expect to find related concepts of a minor nature to be assigned the original general very from the losing culture.
I assume that would be the neanderthals.

D: when the French dominated England, the English words were degraded to specific objects, whereas the French general category broad words remained so.
E.g. Fruit. Avalon. Avalon was "Fruit" in Anglo. It was demoted to a niche.
The same happened with many words.

So what we want to detect in pre-proto-PIE (see below for silly attempt) is
1) PIE words for general categories
2) odd vowel distribution in some subcategories that might suggest Neanderthal influence.
Obviously we can discount any innovation of 25,000 years of age or less.

-----
Thoughts on HIOXian.
I guess there will need to be narrow and broad versions of it.
The broad versions will necessarily be language-specific.
English doesn't consider aspiration. Top and stop both use "T". Top is aspirated and stop is not.
There are any number of such qualities in allophones that we ignore. It is phonetic but not phonemic.
Whereas in Mandarin aspiration is phonemic and central. Whereas voiced/voiceless is not.
We can use the diacritic to optionally, and potentially redundantly with the main HIOX figure, display such allophonic phonetic information.
The cursive form will require a case-by-case form. A single continuous line or curve is easier to pen.
Wherewas a separate mark requires additional time.
So I have 2 competing demands in the cursive script.
The first thing to get discarded is phonetic allophonic indicators.
UNLESS they allow a continous line or curve.
Like I said - case by case.

I also considered the use of an IPA-style layout for a "narrow transcription" version containing a wealth phonetic indicators.
It would involve a large square in the bottom left, and a small square HIOX in the top right.

For Mandarin tones, I can either use the diacritic space above the main vowel, or use the left-only half of a HIOX figure prior to the word. The 2 diagonal bar segments can denote rising or falling respectively.

way to port over Decimese to Visemese.

Huh. I stand corrected.

Decimese: Initial consonant voiceless consonant. Mid position voiced counterpart. Final position nasal consonant.
This is true of noun, verb, adverb adjectives. The others interspersed with their own unique syllable forms remain distinct.

I've been agonizing over "M".
Mandarian Chinese think it is a word-initial consonant, NOT a word-final one.
The Anglo in me feels like it belongs with the other nasal consonants -N and -NG at the end.
Cantonese speakers find the -M at the end makes perfect sense.
However, the other Cantonese syllable-final consonants which I use word initial/mid only for Mandarin speakers are not tenable.

I said the other day that Visemese is completely incompatible with my Decimese phonology.
Decimese: PB TD KG FV SZ, L R W Y, H. AEIOU. (diphthongs per Mandarin).
Visemese: 3 of the primary consonant pairs cannot be used with M, N, NG.
So I figured that any attempt to make Decimese lipread-friendly was screwed.
Conversely, an attempt to accommodate Visemese phonemes doomed a tolerable selection of common world phonemes for a standard aux-lang.
...
I was really bored at work. Banged away at that for 5 hours.
And finally something gave.

What gave?

Well, there I was, mourning the loss of M N and NG. But on the bright side, I could use the word-initial consonants at the end of the word.
...
So instead of word final consonants from Decimese -M -N - NG, we have (ignoring voice) P T K F and S. L R ?
Well, the function of the word-final consonants in Decimese is to denote grammatical element. Noun, verb, adverb/adjective.
Word order- VERY rigid- SVO only (sure we can use optional word particle, but I cater to English and Mandarin) so that suffices for clarity.
Well, in Visemese, what if word order was no longer rigid? Instead of adding either word particles or adding a whole extra syllable (-A, -O anyone? Way to double the basic time required), we can now use all those spare consonants.
We have um SEVEN word-final consonants available for Visemese.
Noun. Pronoun? Verb. Modal? Adjective. Adverb. Preposition. Conjunction.
Obviously, the distinct Decimese syllable/phoneme format takes care of these grammatical indicators most of the time.
But if we have fluid word order for grammatical elements - Latinate even (sans infix syllables), we can use those spare word-final Visemese consonants to allow clear flexible word order. With no extra syllables, just the final consonant, denoting which grammatical element a word belongs to. It should retain good brevity. (Retainas gooda brevityo anyone?)

Huh. And just like that, I found a potential interface point.
Lipreaders just change a few rules on phoneme inventory and syllable formation.

-----
Aside: I am quite intrigued by the SpeedTalk concept.

For Decimese, take for example the still-meaningless gibberish words that follow.

Ri Peblam.
If we wish to cram it all together, well we *could* for some audiences and some future time and place do the following.
R: this is added to form a consonant cluster. I: this is added to form a vowel diphthong.
So we get: Preilam.

Using a Language53 approach, we *could* add phonemes or tonemes at some future date.
Just a thought. This could compact it down even more.
Gemination looks attractive, since 2 A's crammed side by side won't form a diphthong.

Hmm. I found a chart of 24 ways to use verbs in English. Well that's 12 tones x2 geminations.
OR 8 tones x 3 geminations. 8 tones put to music notes would amount to 1.1 octaves, or normal human singing range.
Britney Spears! <:

I have sooo much work to do.... good thing I'm dedicating my life to language, LOL.